View topic - Bad habit...

Bad habit...

General questions related with the YafaRay Project, 3D computer graphics and about this site.

Bad habit...

Post Tue Jan 25, 2005 9:52 pm

I've witnessed an increasing trend among the blender community (specifically plugins, renderers, scripts for blender) related to software releases. It's striking how many times I'll read an official early announcement about a software release... many times before the piece of software has been finished. This is both frustrating to the community and upsetting to developers of the project. It leads to missed deadlines and releasing unfinnished work. Having said that, gladly I haven't seen the Blender project itself fall into this temptation.

Having managed a number of software releases, it's better to announcement a completed product when the product is complete. ;)
xeetstreet
 
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Post Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:51 pm

Ok, I don't understand the reasons for your post :?
Luis
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Post Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:41 pm

Cool, me neither...
Lynx
 
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Post Wed Jan 26, 2005 3:09 pm

Luis wrote:Ok, I don't understand the reasons for your post :?

Sorry! I thought it was obvious.
xeetstreet
 
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Post Wed Jan 26, 2005 3:33 pm

'll read an official early announcement about a software release...


Well, thinking on that, I suppose that you are talking about this "announcement" in news page:

"We hope to be able to release real soon (forthcoming week) what will be YafRay's version 0.0.8. "

First, there is a mistake. It must say "forthcoming weeks". It is a problem with translation, Spanish version is right.

But IMHO it does not matter. If we say "we hope", there is not announcement at all.

Anyway, for a new YafRay release following things have to be fulfilled:

    1 - Important changes or bugfixes in cvs code.
    2 - Stable cvs code.
    3 - Time to build binaries for all platforms.
    4 - Time to make and control the announcement


You must take into account that we don't earn money with this, so all people involved on the above tasks have a lot of important things to do (to work, to study...) and YafRay is only his hobby. (In fact, we are only two "full-time" coders, a webmaster and me)

We are not a huge opensource project, like Blender , with a foundation and lot of people behind the development. We are not searching a "final" or "finished" product, we only are trying to improve YafRay features. If you want a final product, with clear releases and features, maybe you want another kind of software.

Luis.
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Post Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:48 pm

My intention was not to attack you or the project in any way. I was simply suggesting that it was a bad habit to get yourself (or whomever) into.

It's not like that statement was a big deal, but it may have been the straw that broke the camel's back (for me).

I hope you take it in stride and realize that I am here because I am interested in Yafray.

Later!
xeetstreet
 
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Post Wed Jan 26, 2005 8:02 pm

xeetstreet wrote:It's not like that statement was a big deal, but it may have been the straw that broke the camel's back (for me).


As I said, it is a mistake. It should say "weeks", not "week", and you will agree that at 26th we are on deadline (new is from 9th).Anyway, as I said before, if the waiting of extra weeks for realeses are a problem for you, maybe you must think on purchasing a software with fixed deadlines for new versions.Or on the other hand, you might offer your help to speed up releases before complaining :twisted:.

I hope you take it in stride and realize that I am here because I am interested in Yafray.


I already suppose that you are here because you are interested in YafRay. I am a very calmed person, don't worry ;-).
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Post Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:05 pm

Luis wrote:You must take into account that we don't earn money with this, so all people involved on the above tasks have a lot of important things to do (to work, to study...) and YafRay is only his hobby.


Certainly...actually i have the feeling people tend to take rapid software developement at no cost for granted these days...people already get more than they pay for, because they're paying nothing ;)
No matter how much work you spent on your software, you'll get dozends of feature requests from impatient people (in my case those are Lightwave plugins so far...)

Luis wrote: (In fact, we are only two "full-time" coders, a webmaster and me)

We are not a huge opensource project, like Blender , with a foundation and lot of people behind the development. We are not searching a "final" or "finished" product, we only are trying to improve YafRay features. If you want a final product, with clear releases and features, maybe you want another kind of software.


Well, i hope i can contribute every now and then, but it seems jandro is cooking his new design right now, and everything i could improve with my current knowledge may be obsolete then anyway. My attempts to find out about coming design changes have not be that effective...
However there's plenty to improve on my side meanwhile, C++ skills, rendering knowledge etc...
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Post Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:07 pm

Lynx wrote:Certainly...actually i have the feeling people tend to take rapid software developement at no cost for granted these days...people already get more than they pay for, because they're paying nothing ;)


Me too :-)

Lynx wrote:Well, i hope i can contribute every now and then, but it seems jandro is cooking his new design right now, and everything i could improve with my current knowledge may be obsolete then anyway. My attempts to find out about coming design changes have not be that effective...
However there's plenty to improve on my side meanwhile, C++ skills, rendering knowledge etc...


I know you want to contribute with your work. If you have specific questions about new design, I suggest you to drop an e-mail to jandro. I hope to see you soon working hard in the team :wink:

Luis.
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Post Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:56 am

Luis wrote:Or on the other hand, you might offer your help to speed up releases before complaining

First of all, don't get defensive. Second of all, I challenge you to find a complaint from me other than the way announcements are made. It was supposedly a mistake anyway, so big deal, right? ;)
xeetstreet
 
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Post Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:28 pm

At first, i've just discovered this new yafray website and i must say it's a nice one! Keep up the good work, i love yafray!
Ok :-)
When i see this kind of topic i think it's a bit off-topic ;-) Really, what importance? Yafray is a powerful renderer because of its features, and not because of its 'fustrating' feeling :roll: :mad:... although i don't get any of them of course.
it seems xeetstreets is wasting his time. :shock:
lucky
 
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Post Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:25 pm

xeetstreet wrote:First of all, don't get defensive. Second of all, I challenge you to ...


No comments about the contemptuous tone of this sentences. You don't need to challenge me at all. I'm not a competitive guy. Your posts "What can be expected in the new release?", "I really hope Yafray development progresses steadily..." and this one make me feel as a father driving with children back asking each minute "have we arrived yet?".

This is a free software, for all "free" meanings, and you are free to use it or not. It will be released when we can, as I said, there are a lot of reasons and personal problems that you don't know which make us to release YafRay one week or the next one. And of course, I don't need to excuse me for that. I don't want one more person back of my neck (besides my boss) saying what and when I must do the things. It's my time, and my hobby. I hope you understand this.

Regards,

Luis.
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Post Fri Jan 28, 2005 10:09 pm

I'm sorry, you can blame the delay on me (as always...), I have stretched the deadline by almost two weeks now...
There were no new features added to yafray, it was mostly going to be a bugfix release. I wanted to add a few things to really warrant a new release. Paradoxically, the thing I really wanted to do, adding the Blender brdf models is causing me the most trouble now, they are not really compatible with yafray's system, causing shading errors, I might have to leave parts out, making it still incomplete. I should have put more time in making the other parts more Blender compatible(modulation/ramps), the basic shading doesn't really make much of a difference.

I spend as much time as I can on yafray, but I also have to look after the Blender code, and not only the yafray export stuff, I also do some other Blender coding. Then I also like to spend some time on my own programs (which benefit yafray and Blender in return), but I hardly ever really have the time for that at all. And I really would like to do something else than just programming for once, but that has basically been impossible for the last year, if not longer. The last time I was able to use Blender just for fun must have been three years ago... so not forgetting that Jandro is now *extremely* busy with his job, it really is no surprise that there is no set date for a new release. You can be sure we all try as hard as we can, but again you can blame me for all the delays if you have to...
eeshlo
 
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Post Fri Jan 28, 2005 11:52 pm

eeshlo wrote:but again you can blame me for all the delays if you have to...


I don't agree with you, eeshlo ;-). You are making a *GREAT* work with YafRay and you can take all time you need (and more). Though you were ending the hanging work today, we would be late a few days more building the release binaries.

I can understand that people want to see a new release soon (me too), but we all have a lot more of things to do.

So people must blame on all of us, but being more thoughtful.

Luis.
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Post Sat Jan 29, 2005 1:27 am

I don't blame any of you guys, it takes as long as it takes and I appreciate all that you do. Besides I'm a patient artist I use what I have until something new is added. Keep up the good work.
Paradox
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